I believe there are historical accounts indicating Japan was warned by the U.S. of an impending attack unless Japan offered unconditional surrender. Japan refused. This is much more than the U.S. received prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. That notice wasn't received until several hours after the attack had occurred. I realize this does not address the question at hand. Over zealous military leaders have always found ways to circumvent the chain of command in times of national crisis.
I don't know why, Bill but I seem to have gotten more of these before I upgraded to the premium edition. It's sporadic, hit and miss in my inbox. don p
The US military also had an agenda to stop the advance of the Russian army. It stopped its advances in Eastern Europe the day the second bomb was dropped. US military had proven the first was not an accident.
I’m far from a historian but I was taught that Japan was told to surrender or another bomb would be dropped. Was Truman not aware it wouldn’t happen so soon? War is ugly.
This holds lessons on many levels. First, VPs should be included/trained on the job to some extent, always. It’s the nature of the job. And we should select these VPs carefully - look at the whole presidential ticket carefully.
Second, people in power (hopefully elected) must always move quickly to take the reigns of governance. A saying - power hates a void?. Truman did the best he could given how fully excluded he was from the action - both strategic and day to day.
I too am horrified by the civilian human destruction. Terrible.
But the bombings are very apparently the straws that finally broke Japan's back.
I had an uncle, a Marine, that survived the Pacific theater to that point and would have been part of the Japanese land invasion. I probably never would have known him and he never would have went on to further serve his country until his government retirement had Japan not been bombed.
The death of those Japanese civilians were on the Emperor and the Japanese war machine. Not our military.
Why is the atomic bombings still so discussed and criticized anyway. Why are the genuine atrocities of Japan more publicized? Systematic torture, beheadings and ritual canabalism just for a few.
If all that information had not been so guarded and classified for 50 years, Japan may not be what it is today.
I for one wouldn't have ever bought my first Japanese automobile.
Good comment. You're making me think of a point that I maybe should have included. I'm not making a judgment that the 1st or 2nd bomb wasn't justified. In fact, now that we know there was a coup attempt to try to stop surrender even after the emperor ordered it, the case is probably stronger for the 2nd bombing. The question I think is worth asking is whether there actually was a 2nd command decision, or if momentum, assumptions, and maybe "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission" took over. Thanks for commenting.
Misinformation, lack of information and trying to counterstrike before the initial strike is made, is the premise of the new Ken Follett book, 'Never'. There are, I think, 5 stories told from different points of view and from different levels of various Governments about the same scenario that is beginning to unfold. It's mind boggling to think that something like this happens all the time in every type of relationship because people don't want to 'show their hand'. If you get a chance to read the book, it is very good. Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the Roosevelt/Truman era, I'd love to read it.
On a completely separate note, the new "Inflation Reduction Act" has been addressed by 230 economists across the country (including some in the most liberal universities, like Princeton) warning that it will make everything worse. Schumer sold it by telling us that the American people won't see a tax hike, but who do you think will pay for the corporate tax hikes? They have to pass those costs on, which are estimated in the Billions. Hold onto your wallets, they're about to be raided.
(But at least he can say he stuck it to Corporate America.)
Never is, indeed, a great book, much like all his other works.
Regarding the new legislation, I still think it is a good thing to see companies pay their fair share of taxes. In the end, the overall balance sheet will be balanced whether we (you and me) pay through higher taxes or higher prices. I believe from a economics perspective that higher prices are more obvious to the general population that tax avoidance smoke and mirrors. This makes accountability easier.
What is a company's fair share? Is a $40 billion tax increase enough? Again, 230 economists found it dire enough to send a letter to this administration warning that this bill will send us further into a recession. It doesn't matter what corporations are forced to pay. If they have to pass the costs onto us, people will find ways to live with what they have instead of buying new, because they'd rather eat and have heat in the winter than get a new cell phone, or couch, or clothes. Eventually, when companies can't sell higher priced items, layoffs start.
Who will be accountable then? You know the government will blame everyone but themselves.
It’s not the dollar amount; rather, it is the percentage.
We pay the cost one way or another, either through our taxes or through the companies pricing. The bottom line is the same but with greater transparency if they aren’t able to hide behind all their tax accountants. And the companies raise their prices whenever they can. Just look at the profit margins (percentage) of oil companies over the past two quarters.
Hi Lisa, can you find this letter? So far I find articles on fox and wnd referring to it but no actual link or letter. I'm curious to read it myself. Thanks!
Hi Bill, I found the letter but the names are not listed. Everywhere I look I see "200+
Economists" or reference to the more famous economists who signed it, but not the full list.
The most famous, most experienced economist on the planet, Chuck Schumer, said they're all wrong. I have a copy of the letter if you would like me to email it to you. Again, not the signatures though.
A few of the notable signers include Nobel laureate Vernon Smith, former Chair of the Council of Economic Advisers Kevin Hassett, former Director of the Office of Management and Budget Jim Miller and Robert Heller, former president of the Federal Reserve Board 1986-1989.
In addition, professors from the University of Chicago, Princeton University, Duke University, the University of Virginia, Columbia University and the University of Notre Dame, among others, were listed on the letter dated Aug. 3.
Looks like classic: “Do I beg for forgiveness or ask for permission” drama that happens in corporate America every day and given the lack of communication with more specificity it is easy to see how the military thought they were green lighted and Truman thought he had two weeks
Going to the 7 other things..... " tortured" by having to listen to a song? Really? I hope that was tongue in cheek. If it was serious.......Americans need to grow stronger spines and thicker skins. Ask p.o.w. survivors about torture, or crime victims, or any target of continued abuse about their suffering and I'd bet any and every one would gladly trade their legitimate torture for this silly and ridiculous claim of torture by song.
People everywhere get songs stuck in their head (earworms) and, though annoying, they're not labeled as torture. Hope everyone has a most excellent weekend.
As a native Floridian and having gone to Disney World over 800 times, I can attest to the ability of that damn " song" to make a perfectly sane adult go stark raving mad. Just thinking about it is making my blood pressure rise.
I have unfortunately been taken hostage on this boat ride to Hell. The kiddos wanted to go on it when they were little. So, I had an adult beverage and did my parental duty. Once. After that we went nowhere near that portal of evil, lol.
The only exception I can think of for getting on this abomination is if it's scorching hot and humid. It is wonderfully cool once you're inside the building. Remember, hydration is the key. I highly recommend screwdrivers, heavy on the vodka.
The theory IS interesting, but it ignores the run-up to the first one being dropped. First you had the kamikaze pilots crashing into Navy ships. Most disturbingly was the population of Saipan throwing themselves off the cliff in order not to be captured. Why? They were lied to by the Japanese government. Then we had the Japanese troops that dug themselves in and vowed to never give up.
A million men dead to take the Home Islands? I always thought that number seemed low. I figured it would be twice that. Can you imagine having one or two million families royally pissed off at you when word got out that you had a weapon that would have prevented all that death? Oh yes, the word would have gotten out, it always does.
Now, did anyone have any earthly idea that the bomb would be that destructive? I don't believe so. It was the first, after all. Since the second one was of a different design, I consider that one a "first" of sorts also.
Whether or not the second bomb was dropped by "mistake" doesn't really matter. It did what it was intended to do. It broke the will of Japan to keep fighting and brought the Emperor to the deck of the Missouri.
"Precision missile strike"? Well yeah, if you consider hitting anywhere on Earth as precision, lol. One missile made it into Japanese waters. Oopsie. That is not anywhere close to Taiwan. The rest didn't do so hot either.
A very interesting, and thought provoking story. Reminds me of something a mentor once shared with me very early in my business career. It had to do with the importance of communicating. He told me "do NOT communicate so that you're understood," to which I responded something like, "wait, that makes no sense at all." His response, which I've never forgotten was, " do not communicate so that you're understood, communicate in such a way that you're never misunderstood." That simple lesson has always served me well.
Looking at history through a 21st Century lens is always a challenge. The speed of information today is lightening compared to 70+ years ago. Everything we know about Harry Truman points to him being a good person. FDR did not do a good job of including his Vice President in the flow of information. The story, and the "Buck" stops there, IMHO!
My grandfather was in the army and he was stationed in Japan at the end of the war. I very distinctly remember him talking about how shocked our military was that even though the two bombs had been dropped & the war was over, the Japanese soldiers continued to fight. He describes some of the tactics that they use to try to intimidate our soldiers and it is absolutely appalling & mind blowing. They would desecrate their own dead soldiers to try to scare the American soldiers. To think what could’ve happened to over 1 million of our troops is terrifying. It is an interesting theory though
I believe there are historical accounts indicating Japan was warned by the U.S. of an impending attack unless Japan offered unconditional surrender. Japan refused. This is much more than the U.S. received prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. That notice wasn't received until several hours after the attack had occurred. I realize this does not address the question at hand. Over zealous military leaders have always found ways to circumvent the chain of command in times of national crisis.
I don't know why, Bill but I seem to have gotten more of these before I upgraded to the premium edition. It's sporadic, hit and miss in my inbox. don p
Don I'm sorry to hear this let me take a look and see if I can find anything.
The US military also had an agenda to stop the advance of the Russian army. It stopped its advances in Eastern Europe the day the second bomb was dropped. US military had proven the first was not an accident.
I’m far from a historian but I was taught that Japan was told to surrender or another bomb would be dropped. Was Truman not aware it wouldn’t happen so soon? War is ugly.
I remember learning the same thing
This holds lessons on many levels. First, VPs should be included/trained on the job to some extent, always. It’s the nature of the job. And we should select these VPs carefully - look at the whole presidential ticket carefully.
Second, people in power (hopefully elected) must always move quickly to take the reigns of governance. A saying - power hates a void?. Truman did the best he could given how fully excluded he was from the action - both strategic and day to day.
I too am horrified by the civilian human destruction. Terrible.
But the bombings are very apparently the straws that finally broke Japan's back.
I had an uncle, a Marine, that survived the Pacific theater to that point and would have been part of the Japanese land invasion. I probably never would have known him and he never would have went on to further serve his country until his government retirement had Japan not been bombed.
The death of those Japanese civilians were on the Emperor and the Japanese war machine. Not our military.
Why is the atomic bombings still so discussed and criticized anyway. Why are the genuine atrocities of Japan more publicized? Systematic torture, beheadings and ritual canabalism just for a few.
If all that information had not been so guarded and classified for 50 years, Japan may not be what it is today.
I for one wouldn't have ever bought my first Japanese automobile.
Good comment. You're making me think of a point that I maybe should have included. I'm not making a judgment that the 1st or 2nd bomb wasn't justified. In fact, now that we know there was a coup attempt to try to stop surrender even after the emperor ordered it, the case is probably stronger for the 2nd bombing. The question I think is worth asking is whether there actually was a 2nd command decision, or if momentum, assumptions, and maybe "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission" took over. Thanks for commenting.
Misinformation, lack of information and trying to counterstrike before the initial strike is made, is the premise of the new Ken Follett book, 'Never'. There are, I think, 5 stories told from different points of view and from different levels of various Governments about the same scenario that is beginning to unfold. It's mind boggling to think that something like this happens all the time in every type of relationship because people don't want to 'show their hand'. If you get a chance to read the book, it is very good. Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the Roosevelt/Truman era, I'd love to read it.
On a completely separate note, the new "Inflation Reduction Act" has been addressed by 230 economists across the country (including some in the most liberal universities, like Princeton) warning that it will make everything worse. Schumer sold it by telling us that the American people won't see a tax hike, but who do you think will pay for the corporate tax hikes? They have to pass those costs on, which are estimated in the Billions. Hold onto your wallets, they're about to be raided.
(But at least he can say he stuck it to Corporate America.)
Thanks for the book tip. Wish I could recommend one for you in return. Mr. Follett has been a favorite, and, somehow I missed that one.
You would prob like some of Edward Rutherford’s stuff. He does some solid historical fiction.
Never is, indeed, a great book, much like all his other works.
Regarding the new legislation, I still think it is a good thing to see companies pay their fair share of taxes. In the end, the overall balance sheet will be balanced whether we (you and me) pay through higher taxes or higher prices. I believe from a economics perspective that higher prices are more obvious to the general population that tax avoidance smoke and mirrors. This makes accountability easier.
What is a company's fair share? Is a $40 billion tax increase enough? Again, 230 economists found it dire enough to send a letter to this administration warning that this bill will send us further into a recession. It doesn't matter what corporations are forced to pay. If they have to pass the costs onto us, people will find ways to live with what they have instead of buying new, because they'd rather eat and have heat in the winter than get a new cell phone, or couch, or clothes. Eventually, when companies can't sell higher priced items, layoffs start.
Who will be accountable then? You know the government will blame everyone but themselves.
It’s not the dollar amount; rather, it is the percentage.
We pay the cost one way or another, either through our taxes or through the companies pricing. The bottom line is the same but with greater transparency if they aren’t able to hide behind all their tax accountants. And the companies raise their prices whenever they can. Just look at the profit margins (percentage) of oil companies over the past two quarters.
Hi Lisa, can you find this letter? So far I find articles on fox and wnd referring to it but no actual link or letter. I'm curious to read it myself. Thanks!
I am unable to find anything in the NYT or WaPo.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22124998-letter-from-economists-to-congressional-leadership
This letter completely supports passage of the legislation. I didn’t count the number of signers. At least one signer is from Princeton.
Hi Bill, I found the letter but the names are not listed. Everywhere I look I see "200+
Economists" or reference to the more famous economists who signed it, but not the full list.
The most famous, most experienced economist on the planet, Chuck Schumer, said they're all wrong. I have a copy of the letter if you would like me to email it to you. Again, not the signatures though.
Here's more from the article:
A few of the notable signers include Nobel laureate Vernon Smith, former Chair of the Council of Economic Advisers Kevin Hassett, former Director of the Office of Management and Budget Jim Miller and Robert Heller, former president of the Federal Reserve Board 1986-1989.
In addition, professors from the University of Chicago, Princeton University, Duke University, the University of Virginia, Columbia University and the University of Notre Dame, among others, were listed on the letter dated Aug. 3.
I have searched and searched (and I’m pretty good at searching) and have only come across references to this letter on far right news sites.
Looks like classic: “Do I beg for forgiveness or ask for permission” drama that happens in corporate America every day and given the lack of communication with more specificity it is easy to see how the military thought they were green lighted and Truman thought he had two weeks
Going to the 7 other things..... " tortured" by having to listen to a song? Really? I hope that was tongue in cheek. If it was serious.......Americans need to grow stronger spines and thicker skins. Ask p.o.w. survivors about torture, or crime victims, or any target of continued abuse about their suffering and I'd bet any and every one would gladly trade their legitimate torture for this silly and ridiculous claim of torture by song.
People everywhere get songs stuck in their head (earworms) and, though annoying, they're not labeled as torture. Hope everyone has a most excellent weekend.
"It's a small world":
As a native Floridian and having gone to Disney World over 800 times, I can attest to the ability of that damn " song" to make a perfectly sane adult go stark raving mad. Just thinking about it is making my blood pressure rise.
I have unfortunately been taken hostage on this boat ride to Hell. The kiddos wanted to go on it when they were little. So, I had an adult beverage and did my parental duty. Once. After that we went nowhere near that portal of evil, lol.
The only exception I can think of for getting on this abomination is if it's scorching hot and humid. It is wonderfully cool once you're inside the building. Remember, hydration is the key. I highly recommend screwdrivers, heavy on the vodka.
Truman and the bomb:
The theory IS interesting, but it ignores the run-up to the first one being dropped. First you had the kamikaze pilots crashing into Navy ships. Most disturbingly was the population of Saipan throwing themselves off the cliff in order not to be captured. Why? They were lied to by the Japanese government. Then we had the Japanese troops that dug themselves in and vowed to never give up.
A million men dead to take the Home Islands? I always thought that number seemed low. I figured it would be twice that. Can you imagine having one or two million families royally pissed off at you when word got out that you had a weapon that would have prevented all that death? Oh yes, the word would have gotten out, it always does.
Now, did anyone have any earthly idea that the bomb would be that destructive? I don't believe so. It was the first, after all. Since the second one was of a different design, I consider that one a "first" of sorts also.
Whether or not the second bomb was dropped by "mistake" doesn't really matter. It did what it was intended to do. It broke the will of Japan to keep fighting and brought the Emperor to the deck of the Missouri.
"Precision missile strike"? Well yeah, if you consider hitting anywhere on Earth as precision, lol. One missile made it into Japanese waters. Oopsie. That is not anywhere close to Taiwan. The rest didn't do so hot either.
A very interesting, and thought provoking story. Reminds me of something a mentor once shared with me very early in my business career. It had to do with the importance of communicating. He told me "do NOT communicate so that you're understood," to which I responded something like, "wait, that makes no sense at all." His response, which I've never forgotten was, " do not communicate so that you're understood, communicate in such a way that you're never misunderstood." That simple lesson has always served me well.
Dr. Strangelove tone to this post. Harrowing and compelling to theorize.
Looking at history through a 21st Century lens is always a challenge. The speed of information today is lightening compared to 70+ years ago. Everything we know about Harry Truman points to him being a good person. FDR did not do a good job of including his Vice President in the flow of information. The story, and the "Buck" stops there, IMHO!
My grandfather was in the army and he was stationed in Japan at the end of the war. I very distinctly remember him talking about how shocked our military was that even though the two bombs had been dropped & the war was over, the Japanese soldiers continued to fight. He describes some of the tactics that they use to try to intimidate our soldiers and it is absolutely appalling & mind blowing. They would desecrate their own dead soldiers to try to scare the American soldiers. To think what could’ve happened to over 1 million of our troops is terrifying. It is an interesting theory though