I believe there are historical accounts indicating Japan was warned by the U.S. of an impending attack unless Japan offered unconditional surrender. Japan refused. This is much more than the U.S. received prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. That notice wasn't received until several hours after the attack had occurred. I realize this does not address the question at hand. Over zealous military leaders have always found ways to circumvent the chain of command in times of national crisis.
I don't know why, Bill but I seem to have gotten more of these before I upgraded to the premium edition. It's sporadic, hit and miss in my inbox. don p
The US military also had an agenda to stop the advance of the Russian army. It stopped its advances in Eastern Europe the day the second bomb was dropped. US military had proven the first was not an accident.
I’m far from a historian but I was taught that Japan was told to surrender or another bomb would be dropped. Was Truman not aware it wouldn’t happen so soon? War is ugly.
This holds lessons on many levels. First, VPs should be included/trained on the job to some extent, always. It’s the nature of the job. And we should select these VPs carefully - look at the whole presidential ticket carefully.
Second, people in power (hopefully elected) must always move quickly to take the reigns of governance. A saying - power hates a void?. Truman did the best he could given how fully excluded he was from the action - both strategic and day to day.
I too am horrified by the civilian human destruction. Terrible.
But the bombings are very apparently the straws that finally broke Japan's back.
I had an uncle, a Marine, that survived the Pacific theater to that point and would have been part of the Japanese land invasion. I probably never would have known him and he never would have went on to further serve his country until his government retirement had Japan not been bombed.
The death of those Japanese civilians were on the Emperor and the Japanese war machine. Not our military.
Why is the atomic bombings still so discussed and criticized anyway. Why are the genuine atrocities of Japan more publicized? Systematic torture, beheadings and ritual canabalism just for a few.
If all that information had not been so guarded and classified for 50 years, Japan may not be what it is today.
I for one wouldn't have ever bought my first Japanese automobile.
Misinformation, lack of information and trying to counterstrike before the initial strike is made, is the premise of the new Ken Follett book, 'Never'. There are, I think, 5 stories told from different points of view and from different levels of various Governments about the same scenario that is beginning to unfold. It's mind boggling to think that something like this happens all the time in every type of relationship because people don't want to 'show their hand'. If you get a chance to read the book, it is very good. Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the Roosevelt/Truman era, I'd love to read it.
On a completely separate note, the new "Inflation Reduction Act" has been addressed by 230 economists across the country (including some in the most liberal universities, like Princeton) warning that it will make everything worse. Schumer sold it by telling us that the American people won't see a tax hike, but who do you think will pay for the corporate tax hikes? They have to pass those costs on, which are estimated in the Billions. Hold onto your wallets, they're about to be raided.
(But at least he can say he stuck it to Corporate America.)
Looks like classic: “Do I beg for forgiveness or ask for permission” drama that happens in corporate America every day and given the lack of communication with more specificity it is easy to see how the military thought they were green lighted and Truman thought he had two weeks
Going to the 7 other things..... " tortured" by having to listen to a song? Really? I hope that was tongue in cheek. If it was serious.......Americans need to grow stronger spines and thicker skins. Ask p.o.w. survivors about torture, or crime victims, or any target of continued abuse about their suffering and I'd bet any and every one would gladly trade their legitimate torture for this silly and ridiculous claim of torture by song.
People everywhere get songs stuck in their head (earworms) and, though annoying, they're not labeled as torture. Hope everyone has a most excellent weekend.
As a native Floridian and having gone to Disney World over 800 times, I can attest to the ability of that damn " song" to make a perfectly sane adult go stark raving mad. Just thinking about it is making my blood pressure rise.
I have unfortunately been taken hostage on this boat ride to Hell. The kiddos wanted to go on it when they were little. So, I had an adult beverage and did my parental duty. Once. After that we went nowhere near that portal of evil, lol.
The only exception I can think of for getting on this abomination is if it's scorching hot and humid. It is wonderfully cool once you're inside the building. Remember, hydration is the key. I highly recommend screwdrivers, heavy on the vodka.
The theory IS interesting, but it ignores the run-up to the first one being dropped. First you had the kamikaze pilots crashing into Navy ships. Most disturbingly was the population of Saipan throwing themselves off the cliff in order not to be captured. Why? They were lied to by the Japanese government. Then we had the Japanese troops that dug themselves in and vowed to never give up.
A million men dead to take the Home Islands? I always thought that number seemed low. I figured it would be twice that. Can you imagine having one or two million families royally pissed off at you when word got out that you had a weapon that would have prevented all that death? Oh yes, the word would have gotten out, it always does.
Now, did anyone have any earthly idea that the bomb would be that destructive? I don't believe so. It was the first, after all. Since the second one was of a different design, I consider that one a "first" of sorts also.
Whether or not the second bomb was dropped by "mistake" doesn't really matter. It did what it was intended to do. It broke the will of Japan to keep fighting and brought the Emperor to the deck of the Missouri.
"Precision missile strike"? Well yeah, if you consider hitting anywhere on Earth as precision, lol. One missile made it into Japanese waters. Oopsie. That is not anywhere close to Taiwan. The rest didn't do so hot either.
A very interesting, and thought provoking story. Reminds me of something a mentor once shared with me very early in my business career. It had to do with the importance of communicating. He told me "do NOT communicate so that you're understood," to which I responded something like, "wait, that makes no sense at all." His response, which I've never forgotten was, " do not communicate so that you're understood, communicate in such a way that you're never misunderstood." That simple lesson has always served me well.
Looking at history through a 21st Century lens is always a challenge. The speed of information today is lightening compared to 70+ years ago. Everything we know about Harry Truman points to him being a good person. FDR did not do a good job of including his Vice President in the flow of information. The story, and the "Buck" stops there, IMHO!
My grandfather was in the army and he was stationed in Japan at the end of the war. I very distinctly remember him talking about how shocked our military was that even though the two bombs had been dropped & the war was over, the Japanese soldiers continued to fight. He describes some of the tactics that they use to try to intimidate our soldiers and it is absolutely appalling & mind blowing. They would desecrate their own dead soldiers to try to scare the American soldiers. To think what could’ve happened to over 1 million of our troops is terrifying. It is an interesting theory though
I believe there are historical accounts indicating Japan was warned by the U.S. of an impending attack unless Japan offered unconditional surrender. Japan refused. This is much more than the U.S. received prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. That notice wasn't received until several hours after the attack had occurred. I realize this does not address the question at hand. Over zealous military leaders have always found ways to circumvent the chain of command in times of national crisis.
I don't know why, Bill but I seem to have gotten more of these before I upgraded to the premium edition. It's sporadic, hit and miss in my inbox. don p
The US military also had an agenda to stop the advance of the Russian army. It stopped its advances in Eastern Europe the day the second bomb was dropped. US military had proven the first was not an accident.
I’m far from a historian but I was taught that Japan was told to surrender or another bomb would be dropped. Was Truman not aware it wouldn’t happen so soon? War is ugly.
This holds lessons on many levels. First, VPs should be included/trained on the job to some extent, always. It’s the nature of the job. And we should select these VPs carefully - look at the whole presidential ticket carefully.
Second, people in power (hopefully elected) must always move quickly to take the reigns of governance. A saying - power hates a void?. Truman did the best he could given how fully excluded he was from the action - both strategic and day to day.
I too am horrified by the civilian human destruction. Terrible.
But the bombings are very apparently the straws that finally broke Japan's back.
I had an uncle, a Marine, that survived the Pacific theater to that point and would have been part of the Japanese land invasion. I probably never would have known him and he never would have went on to further serve his country until his government retirement had Japan not been bombed.
The death of those Japanese civilians were on the Emperor and the Japanese war machine. Not our military.
Why is the atomic bombings still so discussed and criticized anyway. Why are the genuine atrocities of Japan more publicized? Systematic torture, beheadings and ritual canabalism just for a few.
If all that information had not been so guarded and classified for 50 years, Japan may not be what it is today.
I for one wouldn't have ever bought my first Japanese automobile.
Misinformation, lack of information and trying to counterstrike before the initial strike is made, is the premise of the new Ken Follett book, 'Never'. There are, I think, 5 stories told from different points of view and from different levels of various Governments about the same scenario that is beginning to unfold. It's mind boggling to think that something like this happens all the time in every type of relationship because people don't want to 'show their hand'. If you get a chance to read the book, it is very good. Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the Roosevelt/Truman era, I'd love to read it.
On a completely separate note, the new "Inflation Reduction Act" has been addressed by 230 economists across the country (including some in the most liberal universities, like Princeton) warning that it will make everything worse. Schumer sold it by telling us that the American people won't see a tax hike, but who do you think will pay for the corporate tax hikes? They have to pass those costs on, which are estimated in the Billions. Hold onto your wallets, they're about to be raided.
(But at least he can say he stuck it to Corporate America.)
Looks like classic: “Do I beg for forgiveness or ask for permission” drama that happens in corporate America every day and given the lack of communication with more specificity it is easy to see how the military thought they were green lighted and Truman thought he had two weeks
Going to the 7 other things..... " tortured" by having to listen to a song? Really? I hope that was tongue in cheek. If it was serious.......Americans need to grow stronger spines and thicker skins. Ask p.o.w. survivors about torture, or crime victims, or any target of continued abuse about their suffering and I'd bet any and every one would gladly trade their legitimate torture for this silly and ridiculous claim of torture by song.
People everywhere get songs stuck in their head (earworms) and, though annoying, they're not labeled as torture. Hope everyone has a most excellent weekend.
"It's a small world":
As a native Floridian and having gone to Disney World over 800 times, I can attest to the ability of that damn " song" to make a perfectly sane adult go stark raving mad. Just thinking about it is making my blood pressure rise.
I have unfortunately been taken hostage on this boat ride to Hell. The kiddos wanted to go on it when they were little. So, I had an adult beverage and did my parental duty. Once. After that we went nowhere near that portal of evil, lol.
The only exception I can think of for getting on this abomination is if it's scorching hot and humid. It is wonderfully cool once you're inside the building. Remember, hydration is the key. I highly recommend screwdrivers, heavy on the vodka.
Truman and the bomb:
The theory IS interesting, but it ignores the run-up to the first one being dropped. First you had the kamikaze pilots crashing into Navy ships. Most disturbingly was the population of Saipan throwing themselves off the cliff in order not to be captured. Why? They were lied to by the Japanese government. Then we had the Japanese troops that dug themselves in and vowed to never give up.
A million men dead to take the Home Islands? I always thought that number seemed low. I figured it would be twice that. Can you imagine having one or two million families royally pissed off at you when word got out that you had a weapon that would have prevented all that death? Oh yes, the word would have gotten out, it always does.
Now, did anyone have any earthly idea that the bomb would be that destructive? I don't believe so. It was the first, after all. Since the second one was of a different design, I consider that one a "first" of sorts also.
Whether or not the second bomb was dropped by "mistake" doesn't really matter. It did what it was intended to do. It broke the will of Japan to keep fighting and brought the Emperor to the deck of the Missouri.
"Precision missile strike"? Well yeah, if you consider hitting anywhere on Earth as precision, lol. One missile made it into Japanese waters. Oopsie. That is not anywhere close to Taiwan. The rest didn't do so hot either.
A very interesting, and thought provoking story. Reminds me of something a mentor once shared with me very early in my business career. It had to do with the importance of communicating. He told me "do NOT communicate so that you're understood," to which I responded something like, "wait, that makes no sense at all." His response, which I've never forgotten was, " do not communicate so that you're understood, communicate in such a way that you're never misunderstood." That simple lesson has always served me well.
Dr. Strangelove tone to this post. Harrowing and compelling to theorize.
Looking at history through a 21st Century lens is always a challenge. The speed of information today is lightening compared to 70+ years ago. Everything we know about Harry Truman points to him being a good person. FDR did not do a good job of including his Vice President in the flow of information. The story, and the "Buck" stops there, IMHO!
My grandfather was in the army and he was stationed in Japan at the end of the war. I very distinctly remember him talking about how shocked our military was that even though the two bombs had been dropped & the war was over, the Japanese soldiers continued to fight. He describes some of the tactics that they use to try to intimidate our soldiers and it is absolutely appalling & mind blowing. They would desecrate their own dead soldiers to try to scare the American soldiers. To think what could’ve happened to over 1 million of our troops is terrifying. It is an interesting theory though